Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics/Archive 3

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Video Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics/Archive 3

Piktogram

Well, I've created a complete set of pictograms for Summer sports (including the "old ones" like cricket, croquet, lacrosse, etc...); I've renamed the file to "Olympic pictogram Sport " - as Andrwsc requested - and upload it back (see here). So if anyone uses old filenames in articles or templates, it's better to replace with this one, because I have marked the first one to delete. Next: The winter pictogram! Parutakupiu ^{talk || contribs} 22:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

People's Republic of China, IR Iran, Lao PDR is the IOC designation code. However, I really question why the article in Olympic only uses China, Iran, and Laos. Why?

Note: This needs an explanation, as IOC is also used in other articles such as the Asian Games, as I am currently referring to what the Olympic page does. Thank you

 - Aleen  f  4:36, November 20, 2006 (UTC)  

Mostly for simplicity, but also for consistency. In most cases, main Wikipedia articles use common short names (eg Iran and Laos), so no need for Olympic articles deviates from this. In all cases, the complete designation is very awkward to use on the results page, the medal table, etc. Because the name can be very long. However, through the use of standard templates, each country name is wikilinked for the nation's articles, and usually its full name is spelled out in the first sentence of the introductory article paragraph. It should be satisfactory. Andrwsc 06:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, check the previous conversation (or lack thereof) on the page of this conversation, under "Soviet Union, or USSR?" yarn. I'm trying to get a consensus on what the short name is used, but there's a ZERO answer. You can see what I do (from the list of flags.) Andrwsc 22:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know whether there is a vote or something similar in the past decided that we should use names like China and China Taipei, not the People's Republic of China and Taiwan or China Taipei (Taiwan)? This problem, especially with China Taipei becoming bigger in Asian Games 2006 and this is the talk page. The Aleenf1 user who spoke above on this issue has decided not to take part in his article and subpage again because of this issue. Some people are really focused on adding Taiwan to goods related to Taipei, while others say this should not be so. Seeing what is common on Wikipedia and what is said above here, it must be Chinese Taipei. In my opinion, it should also be Chinese Taipei, but as long as we do not have something to show them not to do as they do now, we will face the same problem over and over again. So... does anyone know where I can find a discussion about this subject before it tells us to use China Taipei, China, Laos, Iran, South Korea, etc.? Thanks, SportsAddicted | discuss 11:07, November 23, 2006 (UTC)

At one point, I think we tried. Look here and here. Andrwsc is the person who started these two threads, but they did not get much response. I really do not think we need to get a big straw poll here, because personally, I think the shorter the better. The most common name is what to use. As far as Taiwan, I see we should use Chinese Taipei just because it's fairly common for people to know, and this is what the Chinese Republic uses for international events. Many articles use "The Republic of China on...," and I think it should be changed. But again, just get an opinion from those who see this page quite well. We take care of the yard, after all. -> A D ^(t) 14:29, November 23, 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, not too many responses. The problem here is that there are now some, mostly Taiwanese who dislike the fact that the IOC uses the Chinese name of Taipei and they want to turn it into Taiwan entirely on Wikipedia. But there seems to be some sort of consensus now in which they agree with having a note at the bottom of the page. Let's hope this is a consensus, though I do not think it necessary to have a record that says China Taipei is actually Taiwan, because when they click Chinese Taipei they will find out what Taipei really is. Anyhow, thanks for your help and if anyone wants to give their opinion, please join Talk: Asian Games 2006. SportsAddicted | discuss 15:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The current situation

(move the pivot level) I will restate my position, not because I impose it on everyone, but because I have edited several thousand pages of the Olympics and have to deal with many different situations, so I think my experience useful.

This problem arises because a handful of countries are set up with full official names by the IOC, not their common names. Fortunately, we use Australia rather than the "Commonwealth of Australia", Greece, instead of "Hellenic Republic", and so on. However, the IOC now uses the "Islamic Republic of Iran", "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", etc. (Actually, the latter is interesting as it is not actually an official name for Libya - "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" is!)

The name of each country is used mainly in two places - in the list of sports results, and on the set of state articles for each Olympics (ie " Nation on year Olympic" page). I feel that it is very unlikely to use the name "full" for most countries in both places. The result will be an awkward article title, but more importantly, the list of nations in the results table will be poorly formatted.

I have to repeat again that the name we choose for each country is used by many templates to automatically format things like the list of countries, titles in the country's Olympic infobox, etc. The current solution we have is encode a common name used for the nation in the appropriate Country_IOC_alias_xxx template, where xxx is the country code for the nation. For example, {{IOC State alias IRI}} returns "Iran", which means that:

• {{flagIOC | IRI | 2004 Summer}} renders Ã, Iran (where wikilink is automatically generated to Iran at the 2004 Summer Olympics)
• {{Infobox Olympics Iran}} using "Iran at the Olympics" in auto-generated titles
• If we want to capture the full name of "Islamic Republic of Iran", then it is usually done on the introduction of the first line of the corresponding "Iran in Olympic xxxx" article.
• If we really need to create a more appropriate country name, then name = parameter to flagIOC template can be used
• If we really need a more appropriate name for " Nation in the year Olympics article, then we can make the redirection from the link generated automatically. the approach taken in the United Kingdom article, where "Great Britain" is the name returned by {{Ioc State alias GBR}} This creates an automatic link to the UK at the 2004 Summer Olympics (for example.) Some editors insist that the main article should becoming Great Britain and Northern Ireland at the 2004 Summer Olympics, so the resulting link is automatically redirected to it.

I think there are some principles that should guide us here:

1. consistency with the main article for the nation on Wikipedia
2. consistency with the name IOC
3. allowances for names that might be politically wrong, despite what Wikipedia is using.

I have created a complete list of all countries where there is a difference between:

• what we use for the Wikipedia Olympic page, with links to the latest Summer Olympics appearance so you can see how the country name is handled in infobox and in the introductory paragraph of the article
• IOC's official designation for the nation. I have copied the name so you can see where it goes. If different from the main article name, this is usually a redirect or an article in a geographic region
• main (non-Olympic) articles for countries on Wikipedia

These fall into several different categories:

Category 1

First is a list of countries whose commonly used names should be uncontroversially used for Olympic articles. In each case, the main Wikipedia article uses a commonly used name, and I see no compelling reason why the Olympic article is different. Also, in many of these cases, the current IOC designation is not always used for all Games. (For example, "Iran" is only "Iran" from 1948-1988.I feel it's important to use "Iran at Olympic xxxx" for throughout years.See Category: Iran at the Olympics for the full set.)

There is another country that should be in this category. but not currently:

I prefer to shorten this to "Micronesian" if we have consensus. I see that the single word name is used on the part of the IoC website as well. I usually use the name = parameter of the {{FlagIOC}} template to create this as Federated States of Micronesia, which retains the long name for the article. I also put this nation under "M" in the list of countries alphabetically. Alternately, using "FS Micronesia" for {{IOC Country alias FSM}} will be accepted (as per the 4 names below).

Updated

{{IOC State alias FSM}} now only returns "Micronesia", and all other related changes have been made. Andrwsc 07:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Category 2

The next category is the countries where the Wikipedia article primarily uses the full name because the commonly used name is used to refer to the geographic area (and therefore, serves as a sort of disambiguation page). In any case, I think the IOC's appointment still makes the most sense for the Olympic article.

For PLE, I prefer to use "Palestine" as IOC does, but I can see some of the political sensitivities around it, so I'm fine with current usage.

Category 3

The next category is the country where I feel the commonly used name is the most appropriate choice, because it's widely known and/or official designation is awkward to use.

I do not mind using "PR China" for CHN (and make it a category 4 name, as per the next section) if there is any major objection to current Olympic usage. I will refuse to use any other name that is longer.

As for two Germans and two Yemens, I would oppose any change to them. I can not see any other solution that will work as good as that now.

You may ask about two Koreans - they are listed in categories 2 and 4 for different reasons. I would not mind moving both of them here (like "South Korea" and "North Korea" rather than "Korea" and "DPR Korea"), if there is strong support for it.

Updated

Korea has been updated as described. Andrwsc 01:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Category 4

Next is the country where I choose to retain the official name, but in short form. In each case, there is an existing redirecting page from an abbreviated form (non-Olympic meaning) to the main article, so I feel that the abbreviation is valid and famous.

For the CRP, I will support using "North Korea" instead of "DPR Korea" (which will make it a category 3 name). This may mean changing KOR to use "South Korea" (and moving it from category 2 to category 3), which I do not like to do, but will not mind.

For MKD, I see that there has been a lot of renaming the war over those articles, so I do not think we can use "Macedonia" (as category name 2). I think "FYR Macedonia" is the best compromise.

Miscellaneous

Update

I've changed {{IOC Country alias GAM}} to "Gambia", and made all other related changes. Andrwsc 23:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments on China & amp; Taiwan

As for Taiwan, I sympathize with the political situation, but I believe the current situation is the best NPOV solution that also respects Taiwan's position:

1. Use TPE ("Chinese Taipei") for 1984 and then Games, as per IOC use
2. Use the ROC ("The Republic of China") for 1932-1976, as per the official report of the Olympics
3. I enter both info on every TPE page (eg see Ã, Taipei China) so readers can see the TPE Olympic flag and ROC national flag, and readers can see the full set of Olympics where Taiwan athletes compete..
4. There is already a fairly detailed explanation of the naming controversy on all pages of Chinese Taipei; I feel this is entirely sufficient to describe the situation. Renaming the article and/or pretending that "Chinese Taipei" does not exist is un-encyclopaedic, in my opinion.

As for Taiwan (Chinese Taipei), we have a compromise that runs on the 2006 Asian Games page (both main and individual sports pages) where we have footnotes explaining what is Chinese Taipei while maintaining Chinese Taipei in the table includes a flag. Perhaps this should be considered a permanent solution for all post-1983 references to Taiwan. As for pre-1976, there is not one or two Olympics where Taiwan are competing under that name under the TAI Olympic code? I do not remember exactly. As for pre-1949, to label that anything to do with Taiwan does not make sense because the ROC is China and before 1945, Taiwan was part of Japan. It's possible (though I'm not sure) that there may be some Taiwanese athletes competing under the banner of Japan, Something for investigation to make sure, Ludahai 03:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I like footnotes. As for the rest, I'm not sure there's a nice solution for us; I want advice on how to make things less bad. RoC must have competed as "Taiwan" in 1964 (that's the year I'm working on now, not sure about other years) at least. I think using "The Republic of China" for all pre-1984 works because it is the full name of the country, a major shift in geographical boundaries though. The IOC has used four different titles for the NOC in accordance with the Chinese Republic: "China", "Republic of China", "Taiwan", and "Chinese Taipei". - Jonel | Talk 03:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the introductory paragraph in Chinese Taipei at the 2004 Summer Olympics was pretty good at explaining the situation in the NPOV way, so I replicated it when I created a stub for all missing TPE articles (eg China Taipei at the 1988 Winter Olympics. Of course, the intro is just a click away from the reference to the "TPE" on the results page, etc. Therefore, I will only use footnotes in the highest level articles for each Game (ie in the "National Participation" section of " Summer Olympics/Winter xxxx. "I think it is unnecessary, and annoying, to include it on every page where TPE references appear.The same reason applies to the Integrated Team and the German Unity Team, to mention some similar examples of" names nation "that is not common.

As for the older looks, I think using "ROC" and "The Republic of China" for all the pre-1984 appearances works well. Any country code before 1972 was rather haphazard. "RCF" was used in 1960, "TWN" in 1964 and 1968, and "ROC" for 1972 and 1976 Winter. In the same way we use "NED" for all appearances by the Netherlands, regardless of what is actually used on any particular Game (other than "HOL" until 1988, there are also "PBA", "NET", "OLA" and "NLD" in the pre-standard years), I think "ROC" is the best choice for the NOC. Andrwsc 23:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Summary

As you can see, I have given this LOT thought. I believe the current situation has a good argument to support every decision we take. There are some potential changes, and they are noted in my comments above. Hope I can spur more discussion on this! Andrwsc 19:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussions

Jared's take

Quite a lot, I agree with almost everything you say. You hit the key points of the current appointment and your views are basically in tune with me.

My theory is that IoC is usually the best source. If there is confusion about something, the IOC should be the source to clear it up. In some cases, the IOC will use the name of the NOC that matches the country name, but is too long or unnecessary; usually the shortened version (used by most WP pages now) is the best in conveying the point that this is the NOC we're talking about. So, overall, IOC names must be followed closely, and should only stray from if the abbreviated name will bring the same effect.

I will discuss everything you bring again, but by taking me:

Category 1

• As far as this category goes, everything you say is good. Short and sweet and also essentially the best, as in this case.
• That said, I would make FS Micronesia just Micronesia . Again, that makes sense.

Category 2

• PLE must be created only Palestine . The IOC pointed to it, so why should we add extras?
• See my thoughts on Korea below.
• Everything is fine.

Category 3

• Everything is fine; I object to PR China because once again it is not necessary.

Category 4

• Regarding DR Congo, I do not think there is anything else I can do to shorten this (because Rep. Congo), except for what is already there, so I agree with this.
• For Korea, see below.
• As for FYR Macedonia, I say go with Macedon . The real political name of the country is the Republic of Macedonia, and we have shortened all the others, so I do not see why we should not shorten this one.

Miscellaneous

• Something annoys me about having the abbreviation in the name. Using USSR would be like saying AS on... ... it does not seem right. I will support having USSR .
• For Bahamas and Gambia, get rid of "The." it is, for me, unnecessary in the Olympic context, plus, the IOC does not use "The."

Taiwan

• If separating them is the only option, I think that's fine. It seems the only reason a nation should have two separate pages (3 in the case of Germany) is if the nation divides, but I see that for political reasons this has to be done. There is just no <____> page in the Summer Olympics where both titles are displayed as related, which may present the current problem created. How should it be set?

Korean (North and South)

• Here's my theory: choosing the simplest (as I've emphasized above), North Korea and South Korea look like the best option. But with the IOC designation, it is a similar case for Congo and DR Congo. I would say that North Korea and South Korea are a couple, and if there is any objection, both. Therefore, I would say defend it as IOC from Korea for South Korea, and use North Korea for North Korea. It seems most logical.

That's pretty much it. Feel free to branch off from my view for your discussion. Do not feel like you have to write as much as we do, because we're just trying to get our outlook out there. You just need to say what and to what extent you support something. -> A D ^(t) 21:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything Jared says because it's exactly what I feel about this naming convention. When it comes to people he is not sure about, this is my opinion. I will go to Chinese Taipei since the IOC started using that name and the Republic of China before that time. For Korea I prefer North Korea and South Korea, because this makes more sense to me. SportsAddicted | discuss 23:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

More parts!

"Micronesia", "Palestine", "China", "Congo" and "DR Congo", "North Korea" and "South Korea" follow the German convention, "Great Britain" by itself everywhere, the status quo in Germany and Yemens, "Macedonia", "USSR", "Bahamas", and "Gambia" were me who took those issues. Obviously, redirects need to be sprayed freely.

Regarding the Republic of China, I would say it is a simple case of the real world that is messing up the poor encyclopedia. It does not help that the IOC medal database refers to the nation as "Chinese Taipei" for the 1960s medal ([1]). Or that the official report in 1932 referred to the nation as "China" (see page 19) and which in 1964 referred to the nation as "Taiwan" (see page 9). Regardless, since 1984 it seems the first contemporary use of "Chinese Taipei", and using RoC across would be somewhat dishonest, I agree that the current situation is the best. Again, the liberal spraying of the diversion.

Russia is an interesting case. The IOC treats "Russia" from the pre-Soviet era as a separate entity from the post-Soviet "Russian Federation", while we are now mixing the two together. Mayhap we should (re) consider it? - Jonel | Talk 23:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with all of these changes (and not changing, as they should). I can start making changes within a few days, to allow for further discussion. Four of us agree is a good start!

When I made all the "Chinese Republic at Olympic xxxx" stubs, I pondered some options on how to represent it. Of course, I think the official report of a particular Game should take priority over the use of IOC retroactive TPE for pre-1984 medals. I think the best solution is to use ROC for 1932-1976 and TPE for 1984 at this time, with two sets of articles linked together via infobox. The complicated things were that the ROC was referred to the Chinese mainland for 1932, 1936 and possibly in 1948, so someone could file a case to show the performance in the "Other Appearances" section of {{Infobox Olympics China}}, but I decided not to do it. open the can from the worm.

As for RUS/RU1, I really think that we should use the same code for both eras, just as GER is used for two historical periods. Andrwsc 00:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sort order?

I've started making some of these changes, because we seem to have some consensus. One question - how should couples Korea, Germany, Yemens, etc. Sorted in the list of participating countries and in the navigation box? Should I put North and South Korea together under "K", or under "N" and "S" respectively? Germany is currently under "E" and "W", but I have to edit all the templates and if we want to change the sort order, I can make all the changes together. Andrwsc 21:37, November 29, 2006 (UTC)

Well, that depends on how we will do Korea. I guess it does not matter to me. North Korea and South Korea are fine, as long as both. Plus it fits with germanies and yemens. I think they should be placed according to the main name, like placing both in K's. This makes the most sense, because we only use North and South as help seekers. -> A D ^(t) 12:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I almost finished halfway up the Korean article to "North Korea in..." and "South Korea in...". There is still some cleaning for today. Currently they are sorted under K (since I enter "DPR Korea" after "Korea" when the previous name is used) so I will leave them like that. But, currently Germany is under "E" and "W", so I will move them under "G" for consistency. Also, I think that means "United Team of Germany" (1956-1964) should be under "G" as well, not "U" as it does now. Andrwsc 17:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Maps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics/Archive 3

Competitors based on sports table

Now we have a graph for the Summer Olympics sport, I have this idea for creating a table, on " Country on the XXXX Season Olympic" page, where all competitors will be sorted by sport they. You can see what I'm talking about here . Images and numbers are called through this template (very basic), but the table should be set by the editor, taking into account the number of sports and consequently the number of rows and columns - this issue will be discussed. I tried encoding the table itself, but the wiki scripting language is not enough. what do you think? Parutakupiu ^{talk || contribs} 21:43, November 23, 2006 (UTC)

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Stablepedia

Start cross-post.

View the Wikipedia conversation: Version 1.0 Editorial Team # Stablepedia. If you want to comment, please comment there. ? MESSED ROCKER ? 02:29, November 26, 2006 (UTC)

End cross-posting. Please do not comment anymore in this section.

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Olympic Template

(Sigh) I seem to be beating a dead horse here. Andrswc, what's the reason you have a list of medal lists in sports templates? I mean Diving at the Summer Olympics looks good by having see also statements on the medal table. I know there are other pages that include sports templates, but can not we have the same see also above those medal tables too? Perakhantu 06:53, December 1, 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course! My motivation is that the "List of Olympic medalists in...." articles are not easily accessible (except for some sports, in which they have been added in the "See also" from "in the main Olympic Sports" "article of), but put they are in all the navigation boxes instantly adding them to all of the "Sports at this year's Olympics" pages as well. I feel that it's an important link to have on every sports page, so our options are:

1. leave the link in the navigation box
2. delete it, but add the "See also" section to every sports page (main year)

I think it's inconsistent to have both links on that page for some but not all sports, so we need to have a consistent presentation. If you feel strong about it, be WP: BOLD and make changes, but make sure that everything is consistent! Andrwsc 07:56, December 1, 2006 (UTC)

Ok here is what I would do. I'll sign in to every " sports page of the XXXX Summer Olympics" and remove (if I find) event templates on the main sports page. I'll also add a look-up section to "Olympic medalist list on XXXX", so the sports template will ultimately have no part in it. And then adding pictograms will greatly improve this page (long way to go, I know). As for the details link, I think it's still for discussion, and I suspect Andrwsc wants to do that part. So for people who see the "see also" section popping up, please do not delete. I am slowly breaking through my path through this. Perakhantu 06:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable plan. May I suggest you look at Wikipedia: AutoWikiBrowser to help you "work hard" through articles? This is a very useful tool for making such repeating similar edits. Hope this helps, Andrwsc 06:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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Olympics & amp; Asian Games Infoboxes

((pulling this into a separate topic because it does not relate to the "Olympic Template" topic) Andrwsc

Hi everyone, I started on this Wikiproject a few years ago, I then disappeared (well, working in another area of ​​WP) and just read this talk page last few days. The Wikipedia templating feature has become very advanced since then so I want to throw an idea around:

• We currently have, say, the following article:
  • A. Summer Olympics 1996 (year)
  • B. Australia at the Summer Olympics (country)
  • C. Cycling at the Summer Olympics (sport)
• We merge them:
  • D. Australia at the 1996 Summer Olympics (country/year)
  • E. Cycling at the 1996 Summer Olympics (sport/year)
• Is there room for the following styles?
  • F. Australia on Cycling at the Summer Olympics (country/sports)
• And wait:
  • G. Australia in Cycling at the 1996 Summer Olympics (country/sports/year)

Now before you say "too much work!" this really can make things easier! Article G can be a template, and transcribed into articles D, E and F. The same information needs to be written once, and then will appear in some articles. If each transcluded article takes the form of a whole section, it will be editable by the usual "edit" part link and no one will notice (unless they go to edit the entire page). Formatting a change or disambiguation name only needs to be done once. Noinclude tags can be used so articles can be viewed individually as their own articles as well as other article sub-sections.

I can do this example later if anyone is interested about how it works, if there is interest. - Chuq 01:02, November 28, 2006 (UTC)

Often the idea of ​​pairing this "nation/sport" crossed my mind... but it flew as fast as it approached and I never really thought about it deeply. An example would be cool. Parutakupiu ^{talk || Contribs} 01:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never experienced it before, but I do not understand why we can not do this... I'll "work too much," but maybe something might be better. I would like to see examples of work (e.g. One with each of the above pages, A-G and links between them etc.) Do not overdo it, I just want to see how it works). I want to see it in action!

Source of the article : Wikipedia